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Episode 0030 Shownotes
Navigating the struggles of postdoc employability, with Dr. Holly Prescott
If you are a researcher, you don't want to miss Dr. Holly Prescott, a career advisor who shares her expertise on this PostdocTransformation show episode. She sheds light into the challenges faced by doctoral students and postdoc scientists in navigating their career paths. We discussed the importance of transparent communication and the admissions process and the need for support from supervisors to help students explore career options beyond academia. Holly provides valuable insights on personal value systems and the significance of defining one's own success. She also highlights her blog Postgradual and her contributions to career guidance books. Listen to this 50 min episode for your career transition out of academia!
We share actionable tips for your PostdocTransformation.
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Why Dr. Holly Prescott supports scholars' career transitions into business
Eleonore:
Thank you for your time, Dr. Holly Prescott. I'm so happy to have you because I've been following your work since a couple of years now, and you support doctoral students in their career aspirations within and beyond academia.
And you are profoundly qualified to do that. In parallel to your work at a university. You are also offering paid services at other universities. So, this makes you the perfect guest for today's episode of the PostdocTransformation show for scientists leaping into business.
So, my first question to you is why do you put so much time into extra services outside of your day job?
Dr. Holly Prescott: Yeah, it's a good question. I'm someone who's found a line of work that not only they enjoy, but they can't help but do. It also comes from a PhD or a researcher mindset as well. Whatever I end up doing, I end up being quite a nerd about it. My PhD was in English literature. It wasn't in anything to do with careers at all, but As I've moved into the career guidance profession line of work, I've kind of approached it with the rigor, the enthusiasm, and that desire to really to grips and go deep [00:03:00] with it I showed my grad school work.
And I don't think that's unusual. A lot of us who have done a PhD have that appetite that kind of rigor, to really want to throw ourselves into something, which is what I've done with career guidance.
I also think having come through the PhD myself, I felt like there was a gap, when I was doing it, for the kind of what I hope is authentic, relatable advice that I focus on in post gradual. That academic mindset, you become experienced in something, knowledgeable in something. You automatically wanna turn that into some kind of product, the usual products would be a thesis or a book or something. And I guess my external work is me creating those products from my experience and from my career guidance experience, and my learning in that. I've still got that drive to turn my work into [00:04:00] products that others can from, which I think you do in academia all the time with conferences and papers and things. So, I do that now in careers work with my blog, other publications and things like that. I hope that makes sense.
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Eleonore: Absolutely, Holly and I can only put myself in the shoes of an early career scientist who finds your postgradual blog. Every reader is lucky to have that as a resource because it takes the postgraduate researcher by the hand and makes them feel. I'm not alone. These are frequently asked questions per category that are absolutely relatable to me.
So what kind of current blog categories do you have?
Dr. Holly Prescott: Absolutely. That's really kind of you to say, Eleonore, and I'm glad that that's how postgradual comes across. There are quite a few categories on there, but I would say that the main ones are focused on helping, doctoral [00:05:00] students and post-doctoral, to navigate the process of career change beyond academia.
One category of advice in there, is to how to actually reflect on what you want, what do you want from your next steps? What have you actually enjoyed about academia how can you find other options that will help you to do those things more often?
There's a category in there about how to articulate your skills, and articulate the experience you've got in an academic environment to employers in other sectors. a category in there about the emotional side of leaving academia, taking care of yourself and your mental health, and things you might experience, like feelings of grief or identity crisis leaving behind a subject area or a kind of work you might have done for a long time.
As you already mentioned, Eleonore, there's a category linked to frequently asked questions. Some of the questions I've answered on the [00:06:00] blog have been, got a PhD. What level of job can I apply for outside of academia? I've got a PhD. Does that mean I can be a project manager?
And other kind of questions that I find come up all the time, from PhD researchers that I work with, trying to offer as much as possible simple, accessible frameworks for thinking through possible answers to these questions.
A lot of the questions I answer on the blog don't have black or white answers, but what I try to provide is some kind of framework that people can lift and apply to their own experience to come up with some kind of way of navigating I think can sometimes be quite a confusing landscape careers beyond academia that use a very different set of values and a very different language to what doctoral [00:07:00] students might be used to coming from academia.
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A natural conflict of interests between universities and the individual early career scientist
Eleonore: Holly, that was a great [00:08:00] answer that shows a lot of your motivation and also your experience in maybe what other universities are also not giving, because these are questions that many doctoral students globally ask. And they need answers too.
The way you answer these questions in terms of not giving a straight answer, but instead giving them a framework to find their own answers is really valuable for them.
Now let's switch gears as you are working with many grad schools. Do you see a pattern that makes it hard for their graduates to transition into business. Is it like the way they set up the curriculum, their resources and their agendas. Do you see that there is a natural conflict in finding a career that is also bound to be successful in business beyond academia.
Dr. Holly Prescott: That is a really good question. And I think I do. A [00:09:00] natural conflict comes in the fact that, I'll say certainly in the UK and, and in mainland Europe, and I think in some other countries as well. A doctoral student, a PhD student, is often recruited for very different reasons than a student on a taught degree. Right, a student on a taught degree is someone there to pay fees, be in that class, be part of that curriculum, but PhD research researchers are recruited particularly in science often to enhance a supervisor's reputation, right? They're hired with that a taught student isn't recruited with.
And I think that introduces what you said are these natural conflicts? Because you know, to some degree, why shouldn't a professor who hires a PhD student work [00:10:00] on a particular project that is important their lab or their reputation, why shouldn't that professor want that research to be that PhD student's focus? You know, why? Why, why?
Why would they want that PhD student off doing other things when the reason that they brought them on board is to complete that piece of research. And I see it from that perspective. I think there is sometimes a conflict, between the PhD student is there for the professor, for the student themselves, for the university, and then for people like myself who support those researchers. And it is a very difficult balance to find.
So, what I'm trying to put some time into now not just training PhD but training PhD supervisors. So, this is something that I'm doing with a colleague in my day job [00:11:00] at University of Birmingham, and it's something that I've been talking about at a few conferences recently as well. So, I think this conflict comes when a PhD may have the feelings of, well, maybe I'm enjoying my PhD, or maybe I'm not, but I don't think staying in academia is for me in the long run. Who can they talk to about that? Maybe they feel they can't talk to their supervisor about that because as we said, their supervisor has recruited them for particular reasons. They might be worried if they go to their supervisor and now say they're interested in something else could have repercussions.
How can supervisors mitigate this natural conflict?
Dr. Holly Prescott: So, what myself and my colleague at University of Birmingham are doing is trying to run training for supervisors to help 'em to understand that they're there to support a person, not just a project.
Some easy practical strategies on how to manage a career conversation without shutting it down. Just as simple as that. Enabling, empowering supervisors to have that conversation but not feel like the book stops with them able to sign post PhDs to people who can have impartial conversations these things in a way that perhaps a supervisor feels they can't do.
Please also check out Dr. Holly Prescott's blog article:
Mind Your Language: Managing career-related conversations with researchers
So, I think the short answer to that is, I think I've outlined there that I think there are definitely [00:13:00] conflicts, with that, that come up around PhD researchers feeling like they want to explore careers beyond academia. But the answer to that is not just providing training for the student themselves, it's providing training for the people who, who support them and who recruited them in the first place.
Eleonore: That is such a huge and important answer, Holly, and I really hope that this episode is also listened to by my fellow faculty because I know that professors who have never put a foot outside of academia, they don't feel comfortable talking about career transition because it's not their home turf.
It's also against whatever they have ever felt as a valuable life and career choice. If your protegee, your best doctoral student, now wants to go away. These feelings. Really hard to tackle for my faculty colleagues. So, it is really [00:14:00] important work that you are reaching out to them and help them overcome that feeling in the sense of, it's not about them being rejected, but it's about the doctoral students life and career choice.
From episode one and counting, I have proudly hosted all our Postdoc Transformation Show episodes on Podbean. As a former IT strategy consultant, I have high requirements on my tech stack and Podbean is my perfect fit for a podcast host. If you want to create your own individual podcast or one for, you know, internal upskilling and communications within a company, DM or email me Podbean so I can share my experience and consult you. You can also use my affiliate links for perks, launching your own podcast with Podbean.
Supervision resembles parenting at best and at worst - and the early career scientist must learn to position oneself
Dr. Holly Prescott: Yeah. And you're right, it's hard and I think there are almost some illusions that you can draw some comparisons, you can draw between that relationship and parenting.
You might have aspirations and ideas for that person you supervise, but ultimately they're gonna find their own way. And as you say, that's not about you, it's about them. And to what extent, we can sort of manage that and live with that. But yeah it's interesting. Yeah. This is something I haven't really talked about a lot on previous podcasts I've done, but I can definitely understand. It's a complex relationship.
Eleonore: Oh, yeah. I [00:15:00] mean, in Germany where I'm based, the supervisor is also called the Doktormutter or Doktorvater. So the doctoral father or the mother. And that really adds to the emotional turmoil.
I can absolutely relate to that because I felt like persona non grata.
I try to hide that for the very longest time, but when I broke the news that I would be leaping at out of science, I felt really, really bad. Not so much like a failure, but more like a disappointment for my supervisors that have grad school directors, you know? The ones who invested in me, if you know what I mean.
Dr. Holly Prescott: No, I get that and I think that's really commonplace. And I've talked to so many people who are worried about having that conversation for exactly that reason.
Think about your position statement
Dr. Holly Prescott: I remember some of the opposition I faced when I told people that my plan wasn't to stay in academia. [00:16:00] But if there are listening who are finding that conversation difficult who are finding just defending their career ideas or defending their choices difficult can you come up with what I call your position statement why you are doing what you are doing.
For example, I had people people in the research environment say all kinds of things like "you are wasting yourself if you don't go into academia". So, my position statement was, I've enjoyed my PhD. The things I enjoyed the most about it were the student facing aspect. So, I've really enjoyed, mentorship and things like that. And because that's what my PhD has taught me, I don't think that academia is the best for my best bits.
I'm not rejecting [00:17:00] it. I'm not failing in it. I'm just saying that it's not going to let me use the bits of myself I want to use as often as I want to use them. So, therefore I'm making the decision to move into professional support services, specifically career guidance, and just having that case ready to go when I was challenged, it did make people sort of think back and having those so positive reasons why you are making the choice you're making rather than negative reasons about what you are leaving behind.
Eleonore: Perfect Holly. And just to reiterate that. It's really a great answer on differentiating between where are you going to be versus what are you leaving behind to really find the best fit for your personality and skill set. And I [00:18:00] want to remind all listening, PostdocTransformers on episode nine and a free mini course, how to leave academia without burning bridges, which you can all find linked in the show notes.
Dr. Holly Prescott: Exactly. It is important for you personally as a PhD making that transition.
Because I do think it's important to justify our decisions to ourselves and reassure ourselves in that way. But it's also really important once you start going for interviews in, in business and industry, because they may well ask you, oh, you've been in academia for x number of years. Why now are you thinking about leaving and doing this?
If you've got positive reasons to say about why you are choosing that new career choosing that new company, you'll do a lot better than if you focus on the reasons why you're leaving something. having that case not just helped you personally, but it's gonna help you tell your story so much more effectively [00:19:00] the time comes and you're in front of potential employers.
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Eleonore: Absolutely agreed, Holly. And it also makes me think about your Keep-loose-change approach that you also mentioned in your blog post gradual. And I will link to that in the show notes so that our listeners, the PostdocTransformers, can dig deeper into that.
Dr. Holly Prescott: Absolutely. Do check out my blog post Gradual, because there are some posts on there about hope on the other side, and dealing with other people's opinions and those feelings of grief.
From episode one and counting, I have proudly hosted all our Postdoc Transformation Show episodes on Podbean. As a former IT strategy consultant, I have high requirements on my tech stack and Podbean is my perfect fit for a podcast host. If you want to create your own individual podcast or one for, you know, internal upskilling and [00:20:00] communications within a company, DM or email me PodBean so I can share my experience and consult you.
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Survivorship bias
Eleonore: Absolutely. And again, this is the reason why I invited you, Holly, you are such a deep resource, for knowing so many people who made the leap, but also you have qualified yourself next to your work as a careers advisor so that you can sort of like draw some conclusions and describe successful patterns of many people, not just single people, who maybe are lucky or privileged or whatever.
Dr. Holly Prescott: Definitely. That's what I, I try to do. I try to say, look people, this is not just based on me, this is based on thousands of people that I've worked with, and I think you make a really good point there, Eleonore, about that, again, I talk to [00:21:00] supervisors about a lot, which is survivorship bias. So, if we're not familiar with this concept, it's that a lot of careers advice in science or in academia, can fall foul.
Something called survivorship bias, which means the voices we hear and the advice we hear tends to come from people who have survived the process. And the people who haven't survived the process, i. e. they've gone and done something else, are the ones who tend to be less visible.
So, I guess also part of what you said, the start, why do I put so much time into doing work outside of my day job is to try to those people more visible and to show they haven't not, not survived academia, survived and thrived, but just elsewhere.
Eleonore: And to your point, Holly. A graduate school should be proud of every successful graduate in the long run. Regardless whether they chose [00:22:00] academia as a playground or business, or even entrepreneurship.
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Mindset: Define and transition your career
according to your values!
Dr. Holly Prescott: Yes. Careers are valid if they are of [00:23:00] value and rewarding to the people doing them. I think there is a thing within postgraduate research about value systems. As a PhD researcher, it's really easy to entrench within yourself a value system of academia, that value certain things. To feel like if you are not living or working according to that value system, then you are not making it.
So, I think the work that I do is all about trying to make it clear that there are other value systems or even that you can come up with your own value system, which again, is another post that I did about how you have the agency, have the ability to define what your own value system is and define what success means for you. [00:24:00] And if that's not what success looks like in the academic culture you've been in so far, that's okay. Even if some people might act like it isn't.
Please also check out Dr. Holly Prescott's blog article:
What industries really value… and how to leverage this in your post-PhD job hunt
Eleonore: Wow, I have to say that this really is a huge mindset change because when you have been socialized as a bachelor, master, PhD student, and then maybe even as a postdoc and professor, that's a very long time in your life, right?
You have been ingrained with those values and you have never questioned them. So to now gravitate away from what you've been brought up with, and to come out with your own value set is really hard.
Please also check out Dr. Holly Prescott's blog article:
Silencing self-criticism & redefining ‘success’: maintaining mental health in your post-PhD job hunt
From individual damage control to
systemic expectation and risk management
Eleonore: Okay, maybe we just have to let this sink and we switch gears in our discussion because now I have the chance to talk to a previous admissions officer.
So, from an economical point of view, we already talked about damage control for [00:25:00] scientists leaping into business, right? So, you've chosen that and now you're trying to make the best out of that. And we already agree that it's hard. And now you train supervisors to make those career decision making processes less hard, but I want to step back in the recruiting process.
Holly, is there anything that we can change in the communication and the selection process that is more like risk or even just expectation management from a university's or supervisor's perspective so that they get more aspiring scientists who will be liking, staying, and continue elevating empirical insights in academia.
Dr. Holly Prescott: Mm-Hmm. So, that is a very good question. So yeah, just to clarify, after my PhD I worked in postgraduate student recruitment for a while, which in the UK is what we call, going around the country and other countries, and trying to [00:26:00] persuade people to come do their masters and PhD at the University of Birmingham.
That was effectively my job. And I think is there anything that we can do on the admissions and the recruitment side to make sure we are getting the right candidates is a massive question. I think, again, we talked about conflicts earlier. There are conflicts here. Certainly in the UK, universities are under pressure increase their recruitment of PhD. If you have a look at many, university strategies in the UK at the moment, increasing postgraduate research admissions will probably be on there for a variety of reasons. But we know that the increased numbers of PhD students are not being matched by an increase in the number of academic jobs.
We know that.
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An honest and realistic career outlook for after the doctoral graduation
Dr. Holly Prescott: The only thing I can think of that want that might help would be if we're open with prospective students, not even just about the destinations of PhD graduates, but if we're open with them about this politics, we're open with them about what's happening in higher education, and we say to them, look, you need to understand that on one side. There's pressure on universities to increase recruitment and to take more PhD students.
But then on the other side, there are other pressures mean there aren't an increase in a number of academic jobs and that there are various other things going on in the economy that might mean some difficulties for people transitioning outta [00:29:00] that PhD.
This is the situation we are in. And it is not a simple one, and I just think being open about that, about happening and why it's happening.
I don't think I've seen anybody do that, but it, it just lets that prospective PhD student know the political climate they're kind of operating in. And make a decision with that information in mind and think, okay, the reason why universities might really want to recruit me is yeah, because I'm good, but also because of these other reasons as well. And those are the reasons might mean that when I come to the end, then there might not be X, Y, and Z. So, I kind of need to think about that. And see what I can do to prepare for it.
It would just help PhD students go into the process with a bit more of a bigger picture knowledge about the [00:30:00] processes behind how they're there, why they're there, and how that might impact on the transition out as well. I dunno if that makes any sense. That was a very long answer to your question, Eleonore, in terms of what can we change at the admissions and the recruitment stage that could help to mitigate some of this, what you call damage control.
Eleonore: Oh, yeah, I'm a professor for industrial and an occupational psychology, and many of my bachelor and master's students want to become HR representatives or even directors one day. So, I also discuss employer branding, how to attract the right set of people. And giving the prospect a realistic overview of the task, but also about the opportunities that come with the role. So, it eases the job onboarding process for both the joining employee and the hiring manager to have clear expectations.
Dr. Holly Prescott: That's so interesting, Eleonore, because I don't think I'd ever really thought about approaching that problem from an HR perspective. using, like you said, principles and things [00:31:00] from HR and getting people like, just like you would get someone on board with a brand of a company, and so they know what they're signing up for. It's the same with PhD, isn't it? I remember reading about something called the psychological contract people make when they accept a job and what they're signing up for.
Then perhaps there's work that we can do to make sure that psychological contract that PhD researchers are making in line with. The stakeholders to whatever degree that that can be possible. Especially going back to what we said, there may be conflict in why that student is there for them, for the supervisor, for the university, et cetera.
Eleonore: Well, thank you for this answer, Holly, I think honesty on both sides would allow the doctoral student to prepare a plan for inside of, and also outside of academia. And will also allow the grad [00:32:00] school, the universities who have a lower drop out rate. And attract the right research focused prospects.
Dr. Holly Prescott: And I think what part of the problem here is that a university in itself is such a complex organism, with so many competing strategies and priorities, and I feel like people very easily talk about the university without thinking about how kind of devolved that is and the competing, targets and priorities that go on within a university.
I do think PhDs get caught up in that and passed around and subject to those conflicting priorities, but I think if we could just shed a light on it and say, look, here are some of the forces that are at play here. This isn't just the way things are or the way things have to be. Actually, there are forces and [00:33:00] structures and competing priorities at work here that might favor some people over others, just to kind of bring those to light is important.
Having more academic experience
than her parents drives her engagement for a socially just approach to career guidance
Dr. Holly Prescott: And that is a key part of what we call, towards a socially just approach to career guidance, which is a critical consciousness, around why people are here, why things are, as they are, deconstructing that and saying, well, maybe things don't have to be as they are at the moment.These are the implications that may favor some people in society over others. But I'm getting very conceptual now...
Eleonore: Oh, this is spot on, Holly. I absolutely love these conceptual ideas because that really also fits to one of my, or two of my previous episodes about strategies for underrepresented PhD students and mentoring your way.
So, the PostdocTransformation show is essentially my personal effort to share my [00:35:00] privilege because obviously I'm a woman, I have Chinese ancestors, but I was already born in Germany. I would say that because my parents were both academics, and my mom even earned her doctoral medical degree, I have the privilege to see what is possible for me. And that's an elevated starting point, I have to admit. And also from my self-confidence as compared to someone who is first generation academic or scholar in the making.
Dr. Holly Prescott: Yeah. My parents didn't even finish school. My dad left school when he was 14. It's funny when people say first generation, just finishing school was kind of more academic experience than they had.
Eleonore: Wow. I didn't know this Holly and knowing this now makes your achievements and your motivation to help other postgraduate researchers even more remarkable.
Early, you talked about your blog as a product and, I know, that that was an [00:36:00] understatement as you also contributed to two books on career guidance.
Right. So, can you please share more about them, Holly?
Dr. Holly Prescott: So, first of all, so this is another example as well, what I said at the beginning about that researcher or PhD mindset. And just to say that if you do move into another career area, you absolutely don't have to leave behind contributing to scholarship publishing, doing all of those things that you do as an academic.
So, here are my examples. So, in 2020, this book came out. How to keep your doctorate on track, from students, and supervisors experiences. One of the editors is Mark Saunders, who's a professor at the University of Birmingham, where I work, and a great advocate, for supporting PhD researchers.
It's focused mainly on social sciences, but I think is a really useful guide for any body embarking on a PhD and it takes you from the very [00:37:00] beginning choosing your topic and what you think you might do your PhD on. All the way through to my chapter right near the end, which is finding your first job, after your PhD. So if you need a companion, to keep you focused, for any kind of PhD, edd, DBA doctoral researchers.
Remember, you are a PostdocTransformer. You are highly intelligent, well educated, a bachelor, master, and maybe you have already your doctor under your belt, or you are a postdoc. You are internationally experienced, fluent in English, a leader and expert in your prior research field, you're resilient, brilliant in adaptation and problem solving.
You are eager to bring in the transferable and monetizable skills needed in many companies. To embrace the future and to become or remain an innovator in their markets.
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Book contribution:
Navigating the struggles of post PhD employability (Sage Handbook of Graduate Employability)
Dr. Holly Prescott: Then I have a chapter in the Sage Handbook of Graduate Employability, and this came out in January, 2023, a kind of more academic volume, a literature review and research in the area of employability. [00:39:00] Chapter three, is my chapter, and it's the chapter in the volume that focuses PhD employability: Called navigating the struggles of post PhD employability. It talks over some of the main challenges, that research and my own practice have shown that PhD researchers might have in making career transition. And some of the things that hopefully we can do to mitigate that.
Eleonore: Wow. That really is substantial. You have profound research experience on that topic.
Dr. Holly Prescott: And again, I think that's bringing that PhD mindset to my work as well. I want whatever I do to be so by being involved in the research, of my career's discipline and contributing to the scholarship in that area, I feel kind of helps me with that. and helps me to make sure that what I'm doing with researchers in my day [00:40:00] job, is research based, evidence based, just like any academic teaching would be.
Eleonore: Oh, that's music in my ears, Holly.
Eleonore: So, apart from your day job and writing books and also your blog post gradual, you're also doing something else. How else are you serving at other graduate schools or universities?
Dr. Holly Prescott: Yeah. I offer consultancy to other universities. So, for context in the UK we're at the University of Birmingham, I'm the careers advisor for doctoral researchers. Not every university has that position or has somebody with that specialism. So I offer workshops and talks, externally, as well for groups of PhD and postdoc researchers at other institutions. I've worked for several in the uk, including University of Glasgow, university of Darby, [00:41:00] City University, University, Loughborough University, and also bodies, the British, society of Cell Biology, for example. sO I don't get an awful lot of time to do that work. It is very much a side thing. But it is great to feel like I'm having a wider impact beyond just the people that I would see at my own institution as well.
Eleonore: So, I suppose that on your website, there's also a contact forms that they can contact you?
Dr. Holly Prescott: Yep. So there's, there is a section called Contact, there's a summary of some of the things that I've done for other clients. If you're looking for that kind of thing at your institution, let me know.
Yeah. All right. And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. Dr. Holly Preston. I want to thank you for your time. It was a pleasure to talk to you [00:42:00] because I think that you are a very strategic person, and I really do hope that universities will listen to this episode. And I'm talking about the deans, the speakers, right?
Dr. Holly Prescott: Thanks very much. Eleonore for having me.
I think it's been a really interesting discussion and it's thrown up a lot of things I haven't had the chance to talk about in other podcast episodes. I think especially those tensions within institutions, those conflicts that we've talked about and those political issues. So, yeah, thank you very much and I really enjoyed talking to you.
Thank you, Holly and our listeners, the PostdocTransformers can find in your show notes, all your previous episodes and podcasts. But also on video shows and I'm really highly recommending your blog Postdgradual.
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Have you ever wondered how to make your grad school stand out in the crowded landscape of academia? Do you aim to attract the best bachelor & master students from all over the world to learn from and work with your professors so that your research remains globally recognized and well funded? Do you wish to repel bad applications which aren't tailored towards your grad school's research [00:31:00] profile?
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Thank you for reading our full transcript of this episode.
For season 3 & 4 of the PostdocTransformation show, we will interview industry experts, leaders in the corporate world, but also companies serving early career scientists leaping into business.
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Until the next episode,
Cheers,
Eleonore & Team PostdocTransformation
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