PostdocTransformation show for scienctists leaping into business  

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Episode 0031 Shownotes

From liberal arts to a corporate career, with headhunter Dr. Sonja Ulland, PageContracting, PageGroup

Are you a scientist considering a leap into business? Tune in to this fascinating discussion with HR expert, Dr. Sonja Ulland, a former liberal arts scientist who successfully transitioned into the corporate world. Gain valuable insights from her journey, learn about the importance of detailed project management, and grasp the nuts and bolts of the recruiting industry. Get tips straight from the expert on staying relevant, aligning personal targets with company goals, navigating career progression, and succeeding in the business world. This episode is a treasure trove of information for any scientist aspiring to flourish in industries. Use our chapter marks to capitalize on Dr. Sonja Ulland’s wide ranging wisdom as needed.

We share actionable tips for your PostdocTransformation.

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Dr. Sonja Ulland's motivation to share her career & headhunting wisdom with you!

Eleonore:              

PostdocTransformers, we have an exciting interview with HR expert, Dr. Sonja Ulland who shares invaluable insights for those contemplating a career outside of academia, and those who have already made the transition and want to progress on the corporate ladder. Dr. Sonja Ulland is as a senior associate director at PageGroup, which is a specialized global recruiting company, creating opportunities for people to reach their potential. 

Sonja shares her journey of successfully transitioning from academia to the business world and how she still capitalizes on her expertise in e-learning. She discusses everything from preparing for interviews with headhunters to aligning your personal targets with a company's goals and making it easy for fellow researchers to leap into business. Also, learn how to reflect on [00:02:00] your career trajectory and get her top tips for our scientists leaping into business, and also thriving in business. This is an episode packed with gems for many time points in your PostdocTransformation. 

So, let's dive right into the conversation now. Welcome to the Postdoc Transformation  Show, Dr. Sonja Ulland. I'm so happy to have you here and I'm so excited because you gonna be. Sharing your experience as someone who has successfully transitioned into business. But you are also our very first HR expert in our show. And you're gonna be sharing three tips that are, that are going to be extremely valuable for my PostdocTransformers. And you'll be sharing these at the end of the show because I wanna have you as a person as well in the center of this episode. 

So, first things first, what did Dr. Sonja Ulland do in her PhD?

Dr. Sonja Ulland: 

Okay. Yeah. First things first, as you mentioned, first of all, I have thank to, thank you to invite [00:03:00] me today for your show. I think the mission that you have with your show is really important because, out of the academic world we see so many talents and if I can give my contribution to help them finding their successful way into the real life, into business, I'm very happy to do so.

Yeah, you asked me what I did in my PhD to make it short, I created an evaluated an e-learning, you might say, as of today. Oh. What is so special about creating and evaluating and e-learning, but when you regard the times when I did that, so it was in another, decade, in another century, in the middle of the 1990s, that was when the whole topic about e-learning was right at the beginning.

And so in that times it was really a challenge or yeah, a good contribution to gain new knowledge to. Do a research on how that e-learning works. And my purpose was, I wanted to find out if [00:04:00] it is possible via e-learning to change behavior of peoples and therefore also develop their personality while changing their behavior.

And, yeah, that was my topic, and guess what I found out it worked. And that is of course why we see so many e-learnings today in different versions, like, blended learnings together with personal trainers. And I think e-learnings are still very good tool when you want to establish a common basis of understanding of knowledge to then settle up.

Physical trainer led trainings on top of that. Yeah. And so, but for me, in that times, it was really something big to do. And you see, I can tell you the e-learning I created, I was very short and I always had to make sure that the video sequences that we in, included [00:05:00] to that training were like maybe 10 seconds or so.

Otherwise it would boost the capacity of the tool. That was really completely different times, as you can imagine.

Eleonore: Absolutely. It actually resonates well with today's TikTok, where you can also find educators sharing their wisdom in seven seconds, 15 seconds, in a minute. So actually, the technical limitations you then had are maybe actually just in time today.

Dr. Sonja Ulland: Yeah, that can be. But in that times, you know that the e-learning that I created was made for young teachers. They should learn how to teach in a good way, to give a good presentation. And that obviously is not done in 10 seconds. You have to find your way to learn about the criteria for good teaching.

Yeah. But as mentioned, at the end, it succeeded. We helped the, young teachers to improve their [00:06:00] behavior in giving a presentation. And I was very happy to see in that times that it really worked, because as mentioned, for that times, it was something completely new. 

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Transfering e-learning in academia to business

Eleonore:    

Wow. So, now that I hear that you are so proud of that achievement, and also it was a purposeful achievement. Why did you then leap out of academia and, how did you leap?

Dr. Sonja Ulland: 

Yeah, I think that was mainly, based upon the conditions that I found in the institute. I spent my university time at the technical university in Brunswick, which in general is a very well known and good university. But I was studying liberal arts and at the Institute for Educational Science, which was a very small institute.

So, it was really bad conditions for doing research. Like for example, just to explain what [00:07:00] it is, we had only three main subject students per year. . And so very limited access to the professors and the other teachers. And our main professor, he was nearly never available. He had good ideas, okay, but no capacity to take care of us.

And so, the things that you could do were very, very limited. And yeah, another fact was the building and the rooms where we were located were so ugly. So, it was really painful to go there every day. And because of all those limitations, it was never a question to stay there and go on with research. And so because there, there was nearly no, no focus for that and no, yeah, no good conditions in general and therefore, it was very easy to take that decision to go into the real world [00:08:00] and leap into business.

Eleonore:

Yeah, I can absolutely relate to that. Buildings at universities aren't always up to date, and the working conditions in the sense of having access to resources and also to sort of like do the research, but also to disseminate the research findings, et cetera, are so key for the success as an early career scientist and finding the right work environment is so critical.

Dr. Sonja Ulland:

Mm. But I was in the very lucky position that I could stick to that topic like Learning and training in general, and e-learnings in specific because, nearly in all of the stages of my career training in general played a kind of role. And I was very happy that I had the option to be part of the development team for other e-learnings.

Like, I was the one who created some content online[00:09:00] for the Fima Henkel, for example, here in Germany, in Düsseldorf . And, did a lot of trainings for other companies as well. 

And guess what? Even in my current position at the page group, I still, I'm still in touch with the training topic because what we are going to do is that we will put e-learning to a completely new level for our company.

We are going to set up a virtual reality training for our salespeople to give them the opportunity to train customer communication, how to argue, how to handle questions and so on in that virtual reality set up so that they can train quite a lot before they are really in touch with the customer. And that will be something extremely new for us, and I will be part of the group that is going to give that proof of concept to that really fascinating idea.

Eleonore: Wow that. That really [00:10:00] is fascinating because I'm a professor for industrial occupational psychology and I'm also very keen on it and digitalization. And I'm also a trainer for VR,  I did this right at the start of the pandemic because I thought using a VR for coaching sessions for professional development, et cetera, is a great tool. And I think that businesses will utilize and capitalize that. That's why I did this training and you telling me this now is like music to my ears. 

So, I really do hope that my own students, bachelors and master's students will listen to this episode because this is sort of like the evidence that what I'm teaching about is happening in reality. So thank you for that!

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Dr. Sonja Ulland's key insights in leaping and thriving in business using her scientific skills

Eleonore:   

Let's go back to our episode in the sense of, it sounds now that you really were lucky in a [00:12:00] topic for your PhD that you were able to transfer into the workplace. So, was it as easy as it now sounds for you to leave or you know, what were your key insights in leaping and thriving in business using your scientific skills? Because we haven't been talking about your scientific skills, but more about your content skills like e-learning.

Dr. Sonja Ulland: 

Yeah, generally speaking, it was really easy for me to hop off the university because, yeah, I found, in my first job I found a very friendly surrounding. They were very happy to have me here and, my first role was for that company, a newly created role. So they didn't know exactly what to expect from a person like me, and they were happy for all the impact that I brought.

My first job was to help this company to figure out their perfect way [00:13:00] of how to learn and how to organize learning and so on. So, that was a kind of greenfield situation where I could just apply what I learned at university. But, generally speaking, what I would like to say is the insights in what of the scientific knowledge and competencies I had or I acquired, I could apply that a little bit later in my professional life. 

The more complex an environment became and the more challenging the tasks became. The more I could, yeah, really use what I learned at university, like finding a structured approach, making sure that you use the right methods.

And, when I was asked, so Sonja, you are a philosopher. What is it about or what, of your Yeah, the know knowledge that you acquired at university. Can you apply at job? [00:14:00] What I always kept saying is, the role of a philosopher is to find answers to questions that will only be asked tomorrow. So it is all about thinking in scenarios, getting things sorted out, establish a structure, formulate alternatives, and envision consequences.

So, that 360 degree towards a topic; that is what I think what I can bring as my valuable contribution to business life. So, what I learned, even in my later jobs is that it is very valuable to have all those methods, like theory of cognition, science theory, and of course in general having a critical mindset.

So, I'm very happy to be here today so that I can be a real strong voice for scientific methods. I [00:15:00] remember while I was at the university, I said, oh, it's boring. All this methods, I already know what will come out at the end. So what, why do I be so precise in the methods and what I can tell you today?

Those methods are really so important. You need to know how to generate trustworthy knowledge and insight. And, when I can bring it a little bit more into detail, I think first of all, the basics of scientific working, like setting up a proper research, like a thesis or a project, you need to figure out what is it in detail you want to achieve.

And that is especially important when you work in a non-technical setting because in the technical setting you can say at the end, okay, my result can be measured in meters, kilos on, and so on. And if [00:16:00] it's non-technical, it's even more important to really bring it to the point, what is your scope? What is your purpose?

What is it, what you want to have and to achieve at the end? So, that is the basics of scientific works. And then of course, statistical methods or test theory are also, at least from my point of view, very important because that is something when you leap over to business life, you will be confronted with so many numbers, facts, and figures.

And I think it is very important that you always put a question mark on them. Where do they come from? How are they generated? Are they really reliable or valid? And is, especially if some of you are thinking about, also having a career in HR maybe just to [00:17:00] say one example, something that you will do in your HR career is set up employee surveys, like pulse checks. If you want to see how do you feel today? And it is so important to ask the right questions and make sure that you really can figure out what the answers mean. Because what you have to keep in mind is what you find out in that pulse check might influence the company strategy.

Guess what happens when you say, oh, I have just a gut feeling that might be the right questions and the answers might mean this or that, that will potentially lead a company completely into a wrong direction. So, it is really important to have always this statistical methods and Testtheorie in the back.    

The value of precise language in business 

Dr. Sonja Ulland:  

Maybe another topic related to that is the accuracy of wording, the precise language. I know as long as you are in the scientific world, you have a lot of technical terms that you use day by day, and everybody knows what the terms are meaning, and I can [00:19:00] only ask you to keep that behavior and transfer it into business.

For example, I'm currently working on some projects under the hashtag insight driven, so finding out what a company can do to really get to valuable facts and figures, and what I see on a daily base that people are completely mixed up in using the words report monitoring data. KPI. So what do you really mean?

What are you talking about? Yeah. Like when you have a project and say, okay, at the end we are going to create a fruit salad. Everybody says, oh, great, a fruit salad, fruit, salads. Oh, it's delicious. It's healthy, it's fresh. Oh yeah, we are so

Passionate about making a fruit salad. And at the end then you have something like, oh, with some apple, banana piers or whatever in it. And then [00:20:00] somebody comes up and says, oh, I would never call it a fruit salad, as long as there are no melons and ness or things like that included. Oh, and then you suddenly recognize, everybody thinks he knows what fruit salad is about, but when you get into detail, everybody has a completely different understanding.

And that is why, why I want to be a strong voice for precise language. Yeah. 

And the last topic I would bring up to the table here is all the techniques and methods you learn to organize yourself and to plan your tasks. And it. You always need to have a comprehensive view on the important steps in your project.

You have to allocate responsibilities. That can be in a business project, but also in the scientific projects. You have to set [00:21:00] smart targets with a transparent monitoring. And, yeah, you see I'm very passionate about that topic on how to set up a project. I would always tell you at once, be precise and make sure everybody has the same target. Second, choose your methods and make sure everybody will trust the results. And third, find a structure and stick to it. Don't let anyone easily dissipate you.

From episode one and counting, I have proudly hosted all our Postdoc Transformation Show episodes on Podbean. As a former IT strategy consultant, I have high requirements on my tech stack and Podbean is my perfect fit for a podcast host. If you want to create your own individual podcast or one for, you know, internal upskilling and communications within a company, DM or email me Podbean so I can share my experience and consult you. You can also use my affiliate links for perks, launching your own podcast with Podbean.

Differences between projects and programs in academia vs. business

Eleonore: So, in today's time, and because of your vast experience with projects as a project manager, do you think that there are certain levels of project management versus program management? 

Dr. Sonja Ulland:

Yeah, in the ideal world, you have several programs, and all of these programs should directly pay into a strategic target of the company. And each of the, programs will consist of several projects which theirselves [00:22:00] once again, pay into the programs. So in the ideal project management world, every task is related to a really high level strategic target of a company. I. Yeah. But honestly speaking, in the corporate world, it is not so easy to find that. Yeah, ideal setup. Most of the time the projects are more like, oh, there's something going wrong.

We need to fix it. Oh, okay, let's set up a project. You know? So it is not really a strategic approach. Most of the time it's more like operational, but however, even these ad hoc projects can be really fascinating. And as mentioned before, I prefer a mixture of different methods how to manage projects.

I'm a real fan of the old word, like using Prince two [00:23:00] methods or waterfall methodology. And, but I know that also Agile working like Scrum or Kanban can really contribute to get the best project result. for my current job, one of my tasks was also to set up the right project management method here for the page group.

And I yeah, found out that exactly that a mixture of both worlds works the best in here. So we decided to have a classical steering, but an agile way to realize that. So we really take the best of the old world. Like we have very clearly defined deliverables, very clear scope, milestones, tasks, responsibilities. But on the other hand, we ask people to really focus for sometimes on their tasks, like doing a sprint. [00:24:00] We also allow that we can change maybe some details into the project plans, like what to do first, what to do second, or, uh, being flexible about the work upon the tasks. That is some agility, what we allow to people.

So, we include really the best of both worlds. And I think that might be a suitable way for a lot of industries. I've been also, uh, working in IT projects, and Eleonore, very sorry to say, but I experienced that agile working. Too, too often, really too often gives a good excuse for having not everything finished on the next deadline.

It is always like, oh yeah, we said we have now two weeks and we agreed on, [00:25:00] yeah, we will do our best in two weeks and everything that comes out at the end will be good. No, that's not what we want. We said in two weeks this and that and that needs to be finished. Yeah. But we are agile. But the sprint was so packed.

Yeah. And guess what? Uh, I saw an IT project when everybody was really desperately waiting on new IT features at the end of the sprint, and the only thing they got was some fixed bugs. Yeah. I really must admit, I saw that so many times, and that is what, when, why I say, okay, agile, working in projects is very good, but I always want to have a classic steering committee on top of that.

That really makes sure that the milestones are achieved and the products are really available and developed [00:26:00] and ready to use for the people that are waiting for that. So that is my point of view to the project management method world.

Eleonore:

I can only second you on that thing that you need to have a precise language because otherwise you won't be able to sort derive the right hypothesis and to look into the right variables, whether they're the independent or the dependent variables.

And then I always tell my students to think about when they do a survey, what do they want to achieve and what are the consequences that they have to face with whatever they trigger by asking. So, whatever you said is really gold and I hope that my own students will listen to that. 

Projects in business - is a formal training required?

Eleonore:

The last bit that you said was also very interesting in terms of project management, in terms of time, budget and within and out of scope. Do you think that projects in business versus in academia differ? Would you recommend a training in project management? And if so, which one?

Dr. Sonja Ulland: Yeah. First of all, yes, I think projects in a scientific, or academic world and in business are different. The most important difference is the purpose behind. In the scientific world. [00:28:00] A project, normally a research project has a kind of open end. You want to get towards a trustworthy result. You want to achieve enhanced knowledge.

So, in the academic world, you want to find out what is possible. And in the business it is always about finding a way to get it done. So, the purpose is completely different, and that, of course, results in a much higher pressure in the economic world outside because, um, the target of a project. The result is mainly extremely relevant for the business performance because most of the project have let it be a strategic or operational impact, but it is always about making something better, faster, cheaper, easier, however, and they want, normally, they want [00:29:00] the results tomorrow and not only the week after.

So, really a lot of pressure. 

And an another important difference is, at the university, I think you are normally. Involved in only one project, and that project is what you do in full time. But in business, you as a normal employee, you have your daily work and you are paid for the daily work.

And then somebody comes up to you and say, okay, you are such a good employee, so motivated, and with bringing so good results, guess what? I have a new project for you and tomorrow, another project, the week after another project. And of course I'm completely confident that you will handle all these projects, bring them them to the best result ever.

But do not forget about your normal daily business. That of course, need to be fulfilled 100% at the same time. So that is, [00:30:00] you see a complete different approach towards how projects are handled. What they have in common is that they share kind of framing criteria like most of them need to have a clear scope.

Yes. Remember what we have said above about the clear language. And so, you need an accurate planning. You have to have clear responsibilities, transparent KPIs, how to measure progress, as mentioned before, independent from that framework in the company corporate world, there's so much more pressure.

Nobody will accept any delays. And of course, as mentioned, people are always distracted as they have to handle several projects at the same time. And last not least, uh, you will see it in the corporate world that the focus of a project will change. [00:31:00] Not daily, but several times. Yeah, because depending on the strategy or the operational issues a company has, the priority of projects will be changing from month to month or from year to year.

Dr. Sonja Ulland: 

When you ask me about what kind of project management training to do, I think, it is not so necessary that you really get a certificate for project management. I think you find a lot of free content in the internet about how to manage projects and I can, only give the advice that you, um, get information about the classical project management methods like Prince two or like Waterfall project management and that you also try to get insights about Agile project management methods because Agile, like Scrum or Kanban [00:33:00] are not only important for IT projects, but for other projects as well. And, but from my point of view and from my experience, it is really helpful to know both worlds, one world is too small for the projects outside.

Eleonore:

Absolutely. Again, I can only second you on that being an Agile scrum master, working in IT and also in IT consulting. So whatever the project management methods were at the client side, we had to adhere and we had to work around with that. It depends really on the project itself, which method is best. So you have to be sort of like versatile in all the all kinds of project management tools. 

All right. So, now I would love to switch gears because as I already introduced you, you, are one of a kind in the sense that you are a PhD, but also you are now in the recruiting and HR [00:34:00] business. So are there any information that you can share with us so that our PostdocTransformers, our listeners are ahead in the game. 

PageGroup, the global recruiter as an employer

Dr. Sonja Ulland:

The Page Group is an international recruiting company. We were founded in 1976. So really, a long time on the market. We entered the German market in 1991, so also very well known and well established in the German market.

We have roughly 600 employees here in the German market, working on six locations. what I can tell you about Michael Page as an employer, when I decided to join the page group. Most attractive for me was in general the job because I'm really a passionate project manager. When I entered the company, I find out very soon that it offers real good working conditions, like [00:35:00] working flexible, working from home when I need to.

A very good company culture with not so much hierarchies. A very young culture, very inclusive culture. And yeah, that is really a kind of job atmosphere. Where I like to work in and I think that is . You would completely be on my side when I say that is what we are all looking for.

A friendly surrounding, nice people, good conditions. Being flexible in what you do. Yeah. That is what you find at Page Group.

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How headhunting & recruiting works              

Eleonore:

Please tell us a little bit more about your position at the moment.

Dr. Sonja Ulland:

My position at the page group in Düsseldorf is Senior Associate Director. Isn't it a nice title? Yeah. That is something that I'm really fancy about. In business, you can have so fancy titles, but what that means is that I'm a senior, because of my long-term career here and being an [00:36:00] associate director means that I am kind of high level in the hierarchy.

But I do not have to manage people at the moment in my role. But I can tell you managing projects, that is enough work to do for a whole day or a whole week. So, you do not have need to have people management at the site.

Have you found this episode so far helpful for yourself? Well, maybe you can subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Podbean, or wherever you get our show. And also, share this episode with your PhD bestie because that would encourage us to help the underprivileged, underrepresented, and underserved early career scientists leaping into business.

This would also ensure that you don't miss a future episode. Also, Our subscription and listening numbers are key for finding the right sponsors for our show so that we can help you for free. And now back to the show. 

Dr. Sonja Ulland: [00:37:00] 

What is the recruiting industry doing? In a nutshell, what we do, we try to find the right people for the right positions. That means we are always client driven. We do not actively place people like we would not place you when you try to leap into business. We would do it the other way round.

We do kind of active sourcing. That means that a company reaches out to us and says we need this kind of profile. They give us clear targets. They are very specific normally about the profile that they are looking for, which is not always realistic, I can tell you because they are all the time looking for young guys.

Of course, very young, motivated, dynamic, you know. But at the same time, they should have at least 10 years of experience in what they do. And of course they should be available tomorrow. [00:38:00] They should be very flexible, very willing to travel all around the world and last not least, there should be of course very valuable persons, but at the same time, cheap.

So, you can imagine our job as recruiters is really hard because uh, that perfect profiles are really hard to find, but I think it's a real fascinating industry. You get in touch with a lot of, other client industries. You are always on top of the business because the profiles that the, uh, companies want to recruit are normally not only for basics, like we need to have a bookkeeper.

So, they are looking for profiles that help them on their way towards digital transformation to approach new markets. And so, and you are always part of that. And therefore, I think the root in recruitment industry is a future industry. [00:39:00] And at least to me it is really fascinating, vibrant, and I really enjoy being part of that industry, doing internal quality and process oriented projects to help our front office people that work directly with a customer or with a client.

And the candidates of course, as well, to make their life a little bit easier by finding possibilities to automate process and last not least, give them a good training so that they can be brilliant and the best consultants you have ever seen.

Eleonore: 

From what I heard between the lines, it's also for you, purpose driven in the sense that you help from the back office to support the people who are doing the front work by creating a high level training. 

From episode one and counting, I have proudly hosted all our Postdoc Transformation Show episodes on Podbean. As a former IT strategy consultant, I have high requirements on my tech stack and Podbean is my perfect fit for a podcast host. If you want to create your own individual podcast or one for, you know, internal upskilling and [00:20:00] communications within a company, DM or email me PodBean so I can share my experience and consult you.

You can also use my affiliate links for perks, launching your own podcast with Podbean. 

Who is interesting for a headhunter?

Eleonore: 

All right, so what probably everyone has on its mind is if I am looking for a job now as an early career [00:40:00] scientist, would I be someone who is interesting for a headhunter or is it something later down the road?

Dr. Sonja Ulland: 

It depends what is your main subject in university, what topics you have been working on, and, I think the best advice I can give you is that you should be really well prepared before you go into a conversation with a headhunter. The first thing you need to prepare is your CV.

And you should make sure that the headhunter always keep in mind. He has a mandate from a company to find a well-fitting profile. So, in your CV, the headhunter should find all the buzzwords that are typical for someone of your kind. He should find all the buzzwords around the industry standards.

So, that should be visible in the CV, so that the headhunter can identify a lot of buying signals for his customer in your [00:41:00] CV. So, you need to give a real detailed description of your projects. You need to mention all your certificates or the competencies, methodologies or whatever you have acquired at university.

But, yeah, bring it really to a point that also an external can understand what you have done. And then of course, you need to be prepared. You need to be able to give a kind of elevator speech to yourself. So, really bring it to the point who you are and what is so special about you. 

And before you go into an interview, it would make it easier for the headhunter when you built him a bridge between your research topics and the industry in the corporate world outside, as an example, if you would be a scientist around material science, I would ask you that you should try to find out where the materials [00:42:00] you are working on are used in the industry. For example, when you're working on polymers for 3D printing or so, it would help the headhunter when you can say, tell him, oh, the polymers I'm working on are used for, fancy sport shoes for Nikes to make them more elastic.

I could really be a good employee for Nike or a company like that to help them create even better shoes in the future. Building that bridge that is really important.

So, before you go to an interview, you need to be informed and prepared about the company.

You might be talking about the industry. You need to get to the point, and very important as well, prepare some questions you can ask the headhunter, but that should be, of course, not a question about, oh, what car size am I going to get in my first job and how many days of holiday [00:43:00] am I going to have?

Or is it possible to work from, from Spain, maybe for a month or so? That is, of course not the right kind of questions. You could, for example, ask him for more detailed information about your tasks. You could ask him to describe a typical day in that job. So everything that shows him that you are really able to change mind and that you're able to envision how a working day in the corporate world looks like, that is what your questions should be focused on.

Yeah. But in general, normally headhunters, they're not monsters. They have a mandate. They have to recruit the right persons, and the minimum target you can have in an interview is that he just says, oh, that is an interesting guy. I cannot recruit him for that job, but I will put him on my shelf with my gold nuggets and just save him [00:44:00] for a later job.

Sometimes I will get a mandate where he is a perfect candidate. So try to just leave a good impression on him. Explain what you stand for, what is your USP, and then I think you will have really successful dialogues with headhunters.

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Save these career tips for when you will be already advanced in your corporate career!

Eleonore: 

All right. Now some of my listeners are already more advanced on the corporate ladder and maybe they're thinking of, well, is this all, is there maybe more on the horizon for me. So, let's see whether you have some tips for them orienting themselves towards promotions or other companies or whatever.

Are there any good tips that you can share for us?

Dr. Sonja Ulland: Oh, that really is a good question. Thank you very much for that question. I think I can start by answering a very convinced, yes, there is more and there is more really for a lot of us because the times when you started your career in one company and maybe making just your way about from being a simple employee, being a team leader, department lead, and so on, and then stop somewhere, these times are definitely over.

Um, nowadays, [00:46:00] I think even for people like me being over 50, they are just in the middle of their professional life, and I'm fully convinced that I will do, in my professional life, at least three different jobs. Until I get retired. And that is also a perception that we see at the market that even people of a higher age over 50 are not seen as old.

As long as you try to be always on top of your business, like make sure that you know the modern, buzzwords that you are in trends that you are digital and really follow up, what is happening in your industry, what are the innovations, what are the new methods and the new technologies. As long as you are really on top of that, you will always be a valuable profile.

Completely independent from your age. [00:47:00] Yeah. And especially for us as women, maybe only at the . Mid or end of our forties, we have the, the time, the potential to think about our lives because the years before, potentially we have only taken care of a family and for our kids to help them find their way, and once they have reached a certain level, we can look back to ourselves and say, okay, family, check now what is in there for me.

And of course then there will be something for you. What I recommend always is. Figure out what is really important for you and what makes you special. And use that as a point of contact to jump over to something new. Like you can remain in the same industry, but do a different job. For example, switch over from marketing [00:48:00] to HR or switch over from development to sales or so.

There should always be something that you learned in your path that you can use for the future. So let it be same industry but different role. Or you can say same role, but different industry. For example, when you, now working in a B2C surrounding, why not go to sales company or another company and do sales B2B also, but

You always need to have something in your toolbox that you can use for the new company.

How to add value from former jobs

Dr. Sonja Ulland: 

When you start your career, it is kind of normal when you change your job all three years or so, but then later on you can definitely, or you should definitely spend a little bit more time with the company, if possible, to prove everyone that you really were able to make your way in there, that you have fulfilled the task that you have been hired for, that you have achieved potentially a next level or so before you jump over to another company or another role.

Yeah. And of course, [00:50:00] every one of us will find a level where he says, okay, that is my feel good level. Because not every one of us is designated to be a C level person. And honestly speaking, we do not need so many C levels. We also need the people below. And so find out what is the level where you feel well.

And fortunately a lot of companies in the meantime offer really career path also for experts. So, also for the ones of you that say, oh, my passion is not people management. I'm driven by topics, by subjects, by projects like me, there are a lot of companies that have a career path for us. And so you might end up as an associate director like I did, and really be a, a well-known an expert who has a lot of respect within the company [00:51:00] without being a people manager. So, there are so many job models and so many different roles. I think there is a place for everyone, and companies always welcome people that are willing to take the challenge and jump over to the new job because they always bring a fresh view, an open pair of eyes, and a lot of experience in their toolbox.

So, they are very valuable because they always bring added value from their former jobs.

Eleonore: 

Wow, that was, that was really so good because it echoes what I share with my students as well in the sense of. When you change within a company, along the supply chain in a sense of if you have certain positions and you are in the middle position, then you go to the next before or after, then you have a better understanding in the sense of it's like a job rotation, but for your own [00:52:00] career. 

So, that's why in your job rotations, not because of the task, but instead of your jobs or roles, you can then have the compound effect of your own transferable skill building, which you strategically pursued on your own because you search for the kind of roles within your company. There were so many value bombs, really, that I hope that every listener will also repeat this episode because I didn't interrupt you. 

And now it's time to thank Company ABC who sponsors this episode of the PostdocTransformation Show. I will now be reading the company's answers to one of six bold [00:10:00] questions so that you can choose to apply. For example, number one, describe your most valuable experts versus leaders in your company.

Have they typically earned a doctor title? Number two, for whichever company roles or units do you encourage somebody with a doctor title to apply? Number three, how would you describe your organizational culture in which your most valuable experts and leaders thrive in? To nominate an employer of choice so that we can ask our own formative bold questions let us know via the click on the link.

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Soon leaping into business? This is for you!

Eleonore: 

Sonja, you have a PhD and you are an HR expert. What are three tips that you can give to scientists leaping into business today?

Dr. Sonja Ulland: Okay. Yeah, I, if you ask me what are my three favorite tips for the scientists leaping into business today? 

First of all, I would say align your personal targets to the company targets. Find [00:53:00] out if real business, is that what you want to do, if you're really ready for that challenge. 

Second, when you enter a company, be open, ask questions, and always try to understand the why behind what they are doing, because it is a different world for you.

And third tip, you need to stick to your ambitions and beliefs don't take things as given. This is the most important tip I think, but it needs to be applied gradually after you have spent some time with listening because you are new and at first you have to listen and then you will switch role and become an influencer yourself.

Eleonore:

Thank you Sonja for all these tips for scientists leaping into business. 

Tips to later reflect your career leap into business!

Eleonore: 

Now I want to pick your brain for those who have already leaped into business and maybe are thinking was it the right way to leap into business [00:54:00] or should it be a different way?

Dr. Sonja Ulland: 

Yeah. And when you have already spent some years in the corporate world, I think it is a good point to pause for a while and reflect your career. First question, reflect your targets right from the beginning, maybe 3, 5, 7 years ago. Is it still what you want to do? Did the role met your expectation?

And second, reflect how the business has changed you potentially. Is there any academic habit or methods or whatever you need to recover after business has influenced you? And last not least from depending on what you've found in your, from the last question, set the targets for the next period, becoming 50 or so, what do you want to achieve?

And an also important question is that [00:55:00] there's something you want to give back to the academical world because I think the whole society can only get a profit when corporate world and academic world are linked and everybody gives back something after spending some time in the other world. That is what I could give you on your way when you plan your further career in the corporate world.

If you enjoyed reading this interview with Dr. Sonja Ulland, you will also find value a related interview with Beth Horsley, a headhunter's secrets for researchers transitioning into industry. She is a Partner at the Page Group, UK.

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Have you ever wondered how to make your grad school stand out in the crowded landscape of academia? Do you aim to attract the best bachelor & master students from all over the world to learn from and work with your professors so that your research remains globally recognized and well funded? Do you wish to repel bad applications which aren't tailored towards your grad school's research [00:31:00] profile?

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This would prepare your best candidates for the application. Even better, you can support and make your current PhD students and postdocs visible for their next career steps in academia or business. Remember, successful graduates elevate your grad school's reputation. So, if you are a university chancellor, grad school dean, speaker, Consider this.

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