PostdocTransformation show for scienctists leaping into business
Get to know companies which hire people with a doctor title!
Episode 0035 Shownotes
A headhunter's secrets for researchers transitioning into industry,
with Beth Horsley, Partner at Page Executive
If you are looking for a job, you need to know the recruiter's perspective. Welcome to this PostdocTransformation show episode. We proudly present Beth Horsley from the UK, who is a partner at Page Executive, the executive search division of PageGroup. PageGroup changes lives by creating opportunities for people to reach their potential.
And this includes the clients, candidates and employees. We discuss Beth Horsley's journey into recruitment and her role at Page Executive, which will be interesting for my bachelor and master's students aiming to work in HR. For our PostdocTransformers, this episode is a gem, as she [00:01:00] elucidates the job search process. She also discusses the significance of a doctor title in business, the future outlook for candidates and some practical job search tips for anyone looking for a new role. She highlights how technology and AI are affecting recruitments and how networking can boost job opportunities.
We share actionable tips for your PostdocTransformation.
Subscribe to our weekly show on your favorite podcast platforms: Why? Postdoc scientists & PhD students / candidates will learn the basics for their career transition from research into business & industries AND will get to know a company that hires early career scientists!
Chapter 1
[00:02:23] Understanding the role of a partner at Page Executive
Eleonore:
So, without further ado, I would love to welcome you to the show. I'm so glad to have you here on the show, Beth. As I already said, you are a partner at Page Executive Technology and based in the UK. So, what exactly is a partner at Page Executive doing?
Beth Horsley:
Okay. Yeah, so thank you. Thank you for the introduction and thank you for inviting me on the show. I've been working at page executive now for seven years. I've been in recruitment for over 20 years. So, after I graduated I went straight into recruitment. I'm now a partner within the Page Executive technology business.
So, broadly we're a headhunter. We get approached by clients to help them recruit on their C-suite level, on their board, and on their non-executive board.
Eleonore:
Most probably my listeners, the PostdocTransformers aren't familiar with the term c-suite. Can you explain that a little bit?
Beth Horsley:
Of course. Yeah. So, across the C-suite, you have the CEO, the CFO, the CIO, CTO, CHRO. So, all of the heads of the business who decide strategically what the future of the business is.
Eleonore:
I haven't shared that yet, but I'm a professor for industrial and occupation psychology, so I'm hoping that my bachelor and master students are also listening to this because most of them are looking into a career in HR and recruiting. I hope that they will also listen to at least the first part of this interview because that is relevant for my bachelor and master students as well.
[00:03:33] Beth Horsley's journey into recruitment
Eleonore:
What's your motivation to be a matchmaker, so to speak, between companies and candidates?
Beth Horsley: Sure, I graduated in linguistics. So, I did a degree in the language of science, which of course is million miles away from what I ended up doing. I kind of fell into recruitment, I've always loved people, being deeply fascinated by people behaviors.
I did a major in psychology at universities, deeply interested in behaviors and psychologies of people. I really didn't know what I wanted to do with my degree. I knew that I love people and I wanted to work with people and, and to support people. So, I was actually working through an agency when I graduated in a clerical role.
And when I was made redundant from that role, the agency actually said, would you like to come and work for us? So, that was Adecco who are a global recruitment business and I worked there for a couple of years, and then wanted to progress.
So, I ended up then for the next 13 years working in what we call boutique agency, which is very much a small company niche specialist recruitment. So, I did a lot of executive medical sales recruitment in that time. And then I moved to Page in 2017 and started with them placing executive c-suite level HR directors.
And I did that for six years and I, and then I moved into technology last year where I was promoted to partner. So, I've had a quite a long journey with Page. I think my main motivation is, I'm very ambitious and very success orientated. I love working with people. I understand how people tick and I like finding them their next role.
And I like making sure that businesses successful moving forward.
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[00:06:34] The Job Search Process Explained
Eleonore:
So, the process of matchmaking, can you also look into that or share the journey of a candidate in the sense of where does it start? Is there a typical procedure? Is there a timeline from start to finish? From getting a mandate by a company and until you can place a candidate?
Beth Horsley:
Of course, I can go through that process with you. Generally for a search, it can take anywhere from between eight to 12 to 15 weeks, depending on the level of the role. The scope of the role, who is involved in the decision making in the role, how many interviews that they want, how quickly do they want this person to start?
It can be a lengthy process, with Page, our process tends to take anywhere between eight and 12 weeks. That's kind of the average. Initially we received the mandate from the clients. We generally tend to build relationships with these people over a number of years.
We help them over a number of years to support them in recruiting their c-suite. We engage our in-house research team. Page executive even are very lucky to have an in-house research team who support us with recruiting for these mandates.
Generally, we'll go and meet with the clients, and discuss the job. And I will take a member of our research team along with me to discuss the kind of person they're looking for, go through the job spec, go through any pitfalls or anything that we might find on that journey. The geography of the role. You know, everything really bottom out, everything. Talk about the market conditions, what kind of person, what kind of background are they looking for for this role. So, meet with the client, talk through the brief, make sure we get everything bottomed out.
And at that point we usually discuss timelines and when they would like to have this person in place and then work back from there. So, the first stage for the candidate, from a candidate perspective is that the in-house research team or myself will reach out to that person and ask 'em if they would like to have a conversation about this particular role that we're working on.
They will get an instruction from either myself or one of the research team. and from there on we will talk 'em through the brief, have an interview with them, discuss the role in a lot of detail. They will also receive a candidate briefing pack from us, which is usually, you know a quite a lengthy document, which details everything about the role and usually has.
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Beth Horsley:
We like to have an introduction from the CEO in there as well to give the candidate a bit more information about the company. We have online candidate briefing packs where sometimes we have an introduction video from the client to talk to 'em about the role because the initial contact is absolutely vital because obviously it marks the whole process, and it flavors the whole process for the candidate.
Then we will keep in touch with that candidate and usually the research phase takes between four and six weeks. Over that time, we develop a long list, first of all for the client, which could be up to 200 people for that client to go through and see if there's anybody in there that they know or that they would like to take through.
And then from there we form what's called a shortlist. So, the shortlist is usually between three and five people. And that shortlist is then presented to the clients in a meeting between myself, my research colleague. We also have a very effective EDI team who join us on the pitch, join us on the shortlisting call, and make sure that from an equality, diversity, and inclusion perspective, we're hitting the mark.
That we are absolutely making sure that it is a fair process across the board. And then, obviously keep in touch with the candidate At this stage, I personally like to have the, the first stage interview quite quickly after that shortlisting stage because, you know, if you can imagine it from the candidate's perspective, they might have been waiting by this point, you know, for four weeks to have an interview and that, and that can be a long time to keep the candidate interested, to keep the candidate engaged.
I always advise clients to interview pretty quickly after that shortlisting stage, usually that week or the week after, if need to be. From there on in the process tends to be quite quick. So first to third stage interview tends to go quite quickly. If they have five people at first stage interview.
We aim to have three people at final interview, you know. And kind of go from that perspective. The process ends at 12 weeks and hopefully we have that person in place who we're offering the role to. I personally have a hundred percent success rate on my retained roles.
We do get there in the end with regards to the right candidate for the client and the right job for the right candidate, obviously.
Eleonore:
Oh, that was informative on so many levels because first and foremost, this was really great as a realistic glimpse into how you work. And I will urge my own master and bachelor students to listen to that episode, at least to this chapter.
Know that you are being researched as a job candidate
Eleonore:
And then for my scientists who are leaping into business, two questions popped up when I was listening.
One is research. So, the research you are referring to is that, what is it exactly? Because that term means something different for a scientist.
Beth Horsley:
Yeah, of course. So, you know, as I mentioned, we're very lucky at page executives to have our own research team. And these people are normally ex-recruiters who have wanted to go into a less demanding maybe role, but one where they can still contribute to the business and find the right people for our searches.
So, these people work very, very hard, on the frontline with us, and search for the candidates. So they are matchmaking alongside us and finding those candidates alongside us for the roles.
Eleonore:
Now, the second question is: And where do they find them or where are they looking?
Beth Horsley:
Obviously Page group are a huge global business. We've been going in the UK for 50 years. So, our database is vast and detailed, and we have a lot of people in there who we keep in touch with, obviously.
So, our databases is the first port of call.
If you go to another recruiter, you might get a collection of people who are just looking for work. We can show our client the whole market and really map where they're going to get this person from and what kind of person they're looking for. So, we use our resources to be able to build a picture of how we're going to be able to find that person for our client.
Obviously the beauty of going to an organization like Page executives, you know, I've got over 20 years experience. I know a lot of people, our network is huge.
From an an ED&I (equality, diversity & inclusion) perspective, we have access to a huge network of people who aren't on the job market or who aren't even looking on the job market.
Our researchers have special LinkedIn licenses where we approach people.
Connect with Eleonore Soei-Winkels and Beth Horsley on LinkedIn (and if you send her a connection request, mention her PostdocTransformation show episode, that would make our day!)
From episode one and counting, I have proudly hosted all our Postdoc Transformation Show episodes on Podbean. As a former IT strategy consultant, I have high requirements on my tech stack and Podbean is my perfect fit for a podcast host. If you want to create your own individual podcast or one for, you know, internal upskilling and communications within a company, DM or email me Podbean so I can share my experience and consult you. You can also use my affiliate links for perks, launching your own podcast with Podbean.
[00:13:56] The Importance of LinkedIn and Networking
Eleonore:
Wow, thank you so much for having this runway, because I've been praying and preaching that my students should always go on LinkedIn and have a profile and have it ready to be visited so that they can be found even when they're not looking and that it's welcoming.
Beth Horsley:
Sure, LinkedIn is a huge resource and we can't underestimate how successful it is. The reliance on LinkedIn is massive.
So, anything that your students can do to up their game, in terms of making sure that they have an up to date profile is, is extremely useful!
Eleonore:
You were talking about the database and I would love to dive into that at the end of the episode so that we can have an understanding who should be trying to get into your database. I just wanna make the connection between you are looking for c-suite levels and obviously as a scientist who is leaping into business, at least for me, I would've never thought of going into the upper level, but instead I would be looking for entry level or intermediate levels or something like that.
And also there's another thing that I want to ask for my students, also for the PostdocTransformers who are listening, we'll talk about the database later, but who pays for that?
Is that a service the candidates also pay?
Eleonore:
The candidate will never pay to get on our database. It is a completely free service for the candidate. But Page Executive are search led. So, we don't tend to approach people unless we've got a search that we are actually actively working on.
So, you know, our database works a little bit differently because we won't necessarily go out to these people unless we've got something to talk to 'em about. If that makes sense. Within Page group, we've also got page personnel, page, outsourcing, page consulting, Michael Page who, you know, work on a more contingent basis and a retained basis with our clients.
That would be, if you're looking for more of an entry level position, we can help you from that perspective as well. Give you some advice. Have your CV on the database, for those roles that might come up.
Chapter 2
[00:16:26] Current and Future Job Market for Candidates with a Doctor Title
Eleonore:
I would love to switch gears in the second chapter of the episode and talk about your perspective on the current and future job market for candidates with a doctor title, but who have no substantial business experience yet.
So, what's your take on that?
Beth Horsley:
Sure. So, the market is forever changing, right? That's the first thing to say. I can only speak for the UK because I live and work in the UK. It's currently quite a slow market in the UK due to a variety of different reasons.
Some global, some local, reasons politics. Obviously the global landscape has been changing rapidly over the past couple of years. A couple of years ago it was a particularly fast-paced market and things were going quite quickly. My prediction would be that for next year in the uk. It will improve, but probably quite slowly. After the pandemic, we had a bumper, couple of years it was a really really busy time for us. We call it a candidate driven market when it's like that. So, candidates can apply for a job and more or less get it, because clients are in demand for specialist niche experience. We are in a client driven market at the moment where a client can advertise a role and have 200 applications to that role if they're doing it directly themselves and get the right person for them. Because there are a lot of candidates who are looking, there aren't a lot of clients who are looking to place those candidates in their companies.
So, it's ebbs and wanes, it changes all the time. I think the future, candidates with a doctor title are always gonna be in high demand in some industries or in some companies, there are some roles that people with a doctor title only they can do.
Beth Horsley:
So, I think from that perspective, there's always gonna be a need for people who have got that experience and that kind of academic background. I think at the moment, it is hard for everybody across the board, whether you are specialist or a generalist. It is hard for everybody because in the UK businesses aren't recruiting as, as busily as they were perhaps in the last 12 months.
Um, but I think that, you know, I think that things will improve, but slowly in the UK.
Eleonore:
Okay. Thank you for this outlook. And, when you look into the industries, are there any industries that have the biggest demand ? I mean, of course I know that you are a partner at page executive and focusing on technology it, but maybe also know from your colleagues left and right, whether they have bigger demands than others.
Beth Horsley:
Sure, sure. We tend to work across industry, but we specialize in placing, senior IT level people. So, I work across a number of different industries, as do my colleagues, but we, we specialize in placing CIOs and CTOs. The tech industry for example, it mirrored globally what was going on. The first couple of years after the pandemic, the tech industry absolutely skyrocketed. You know, Google, Microsoft were hiring a lot of people.
They were on a real recruitment drive. And then in, in 2023, globally, they have really scaled back and made a lot of redundancies and that has been mirrored across a number of different industries.
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[00:19:29] The Role of Technology and AI in Recruitment
Beth Horsley:
Thinking purely for people with a doctor title, technology is a really exciting, innovative place to be.
You know, with the advent of data and AI this year, it's gonna be huge. So, there is gonna be an awful lot of opportunity within technology. I also think manufacturing, will be an area of massive growth and any areas where, and any organizations who are going to be using AI effectively to grow their businesses, they're going to need people who have got experience and expertise in technology to be able to help them on their journey.
And even if you've got a doctor title from another discipline, HR being one of them. It's an area that I used to work in.
You can only not recruit for people who've got a specific set of skills for so long. Right? So in order to grow your organization and in order to be more commercial, you do need to hire the right people to your organization. So, people with the doctor title are gonna be in demand.
It just depends on which industries are going to skyrocket next year. Really?
Eleonore:
There were a couple of interesting aspects that you shared about the big data and AI, and I'm very glad that most of the scientists who are working as quantitative researchers are actually quite great on data literacy and all these things. So, statistics and using R and you know, having learned a programming language or a coding language probably makes it easier to look into machine learning AI and sort of like understand the intricacies that building a database, training a database, having an ethical standpoint, in the sense of what kind of data do we need else also from your ED&I perspective, like equality, diversity, and inclusion. Even psychologists can work in IT. It wasn't the hard tech that I had to be able to master, but instead I was always the human interface between all the other business areas and technology, IT architecture or something like that.
Beth Horsley:
Yeah, I think that's the central point to this; you need people who understand the technology, but can give it a human voice and can apply it to businesses and absolutely make it sink for the people who are looking to make money. It's absolutely essential.
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[00:21:42] The Importance of Commercialization and Business Acumen
Eleonore:
Yes, this is also going back to this thing of commercialization, to have business acumen and to understand if it's not moving the needle in business, then obviously it's not needed.
And these are hard times for companies as well. So, they're looking for spending money, yes. But to invest smartly and strategically into the workforce who will be able to contribute and not to add on more waste, but instead one has to strategically double down on what's working in the future for them. That is really important for a scientist leaping into business: to think not only from their own perspective, but from the company's perspective, they are they are eager to join.
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[00:23:55] Understanding the Ideal Candidate Profile
Eleonore:
All right, because we were already a little bit talking about the profiles that your researchers are looking for, the next question is; what kind of profiles are easily placed?
Beth Horsley:
Yeah, it's a really good question, the difficulty with a CV for example, is you can see what person's experience is, you can see where they've worked, what their achievements are, but you can't see who they are.
Unless you have a conversation with that person, you can't see how they are motivated and what they want to do. So, the CV or the profile on LinkedIn is the first step. What our researchers, generally look for, especially at the level that I'm recruiting at, is, you know, tenure in a C-level role and achievements in that role, you know, so somebody who has transformed the landscape where they've been, somebody with a progressive CV. There's nothing wrong with staying in a business for a long period of time, as long as that person has progressed in that business. We like to see people who have, you know, moved up, a company, and progressed their career.
When we've long-listed that person and we want to speak to them, we invite them on a call, on a teams call or, or on the telephone teams calls usually best or face-to-face and, and really get to know that person.
Ask them questions about their career, ask them questions about how they're personally motivated. And you can really get a sense, the researchers who work with page executive used to be recruiters themselves. They tend to know what is gonna be right for that organization?
They've met the client because we've already been on the briefing call with the client. They know what that client's looking for. So from a holistic perspective, they can speak to that person and see if they're a match for what this company's trying to do. You can only really get a sense of that when you get the person on the phone, you can see the whites of their eyes or you can have a conversation with them about what they want, what their motivations are.
Eleonore:
That's cool. That actually is also giving me an opportunity to share with my bachelor & master students, so that they have an understanding of their own career progression when they move into HR and want to have an less front facing role one day for whatever reason they want. Okay. So thank you for that, Beth.
[00:26:09] The Importance of Networking in Job Search
Eleonore:
And now I would love to take it back to candidates that are easily placeable versus scientists leaping in the business fresh from the bench, from academia, grad schools, what are positive and negative differences that you have maybe experienced or maybe you have heard from your colleagues?
Beth Horsley:
Candidates with experience in data are always going to be in high demand, right? So people who have got some business acumen. I mean, you mentioned Accenture, you know, people who got their doctorates and then went to work for a big organization who can give them that commerciality, give them that strategic experience, are always gonna be in high demand than people who haven't done that.
Because the market's tough, right? If a client can go out there and get exactly what they're looking for, then they're not going to expand that pool to look at people who perhaps don't meet that shortlist. So, the more experience that you can arm yourself with either, you know, working, whatever experience you can get, working from the bottom up in an organization like Accenture, any of the Big Five actually, and any big companies is gonna give you that.
That's bench strength you need to be able to put yourself up against. Those are the people that are gonna be over the same role.
Eleonore:
Okay. Thank you for this gift, because I actually always tell my students that if you don't know in what industry you wanna be working, you should think of consulting is giving you a great opportunity to learn many industries and in many roles within the project, assignments, that can be half a year, a year long, two years in different countries, also in different roles.
So, this is a great sort of like playground to get up to speed, especially when you have no business acumen, obviously, consulting is a great place to go to as a scientist leaping into business.
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[00:29:06] The Role of Job Boards in Recruitment
Eleonore:
So, earlier in this episode you were talking about mandates by companies and that leads to sort of like your research team looking into your database, but also on LinkedIn and everything like that. And I have the impression that those mandates aren't visibly posted on job boards. Am I correct or would you say that these are also jobs advertised on job boards. And then this next question from there on is, shall scientists apply only to the job boards ads, or how should they go about in their job search?
Beth Horsley:
Sure. Yeah, sure. It's a really good question. Job boards, they're a bit of a help and a hindrance, depending on the level that you're recruiting for it, you need to just be mindful of why they're being advertised, I guess.
So, at our level, we do advertise, sometimes our clients will ask for a special advertising package. So, if it's a job that they would like to be advertised, for example, if it's a job within the charity sector, if they want to have it advertised on the specific charity job boards, we can do that for them.
So, yeah, we do put together specific advertising packages for our clients. You know, if it's confidential brief, then obviously it's not advertised. We just use our search team to bypass that route. But in Michael Page, absolutely they advertise 95% of their jobs, the confidential ones, again, they, they would never advertise, but that they, they advertise a lot more of their jobs.
So, sometimes you can't avoid, avoid job boards, but if it's a job that's been advertised through an agency, my advice would be to do some research, if you're applying for that role and see if you can contact the recruiter or the hiring manager directly, because, you know, nine times out of 10, especially at the moment, because it's a really job short market, we are getting, you know, hundreds of applications through for jobs that we are working on.
And again, without a face, or a voice to that job advert, you can get lost. So, my advice would be if you can find out who the recruiter or the hiring the talent partner or the hiring manager that's recruiting for the role, maybe email them directly or, or contact 'em on LinkedIn, which is obviously a very easy way to contact somebody.
And, and maybe just say, you know, I know you'll probably be inundated with, with applications for this role. Here is my cv. You know, if you are interested, give me a call. Help yourself do your own research and, and make sure that you are putting your best foot forward from that perspective.
Eleonore:
Oh, thank you. Thank you, Beth, for this encouragement to be forward in the sense of not waiting for a job post to be posted instead of, you know looking proactively and also following companies that are potentially employers of choice or should be yours.
[00:31:47] The Impact of Artificial Intelligence on Recruitment
Eleonore:
So, because now I'm talking to you, would you say that there is sort of like a robo- recruiting or is artificial intelligence also disrupting the HR, the recruiting processes?
Beth Horsley:
It's a really good question. And I think at the moment we're still all getting to grips with AI and how it can support us and how from an EDI perspective and from a GDPR perspective in the uk, you know, data protection perspective, we need to make sure that it's being used in the right way.
And I think, I think most people are still a bit unsure as to, what the pitfalls and the high points of using AI might be that in the future. Sure, AI will play a bigger part in recruitment. It's gonna play a bigger part in every area of our lives, I think.
We haven't seen the impact of it yet in our space. I can only speak for Page Executive. Our level, it's a lot more difficult to find that person who is absolutely right for that organization. So, we haven't really seen disrupt our spaces yet.
But I think that that will come, how it will come and how it will happen, I don't really have an answer for you right now. I imagine that people are using AI to write job adverts, to write job specs, on a website or a job board.
Maybe AI is having some impact there in terms of scoring candidates.
Eleonore:
Okay. That really is interesting on many levels because the scoring Can also be misled in the sense of when you're looking for specific skills in the sense of needs to have this and this and this. Then easily a scientist leaping into business can be not on the radar.
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[00:33:26] The Power of Networking in Career Visibility
Eleonore:
This is where networking maybe comes into play. So, my next question is, how to bypass that potential falling out of the funnel. Are there any tips that you can share with us so that, scientists leaping into business can make them self visible and promote themselves for roles that weren't on the radar, but now that they have networked with HR recruiters, hiring managers, they can be visible on the human side.
Beth Horsley:
Yeah. It's all about networking really. Our lives are built around networking. We get very little success without that human to human contact. I think in terms of building relationships, the people at the top of the business are always gonna be the people who you want to impress, but you know, often it's the recruiters, the talent acquisition directors, the people who work in the recruitment teams of the businesses, and obviously the agency recruiters are gonna be recruiting for those roles that you need to know, that you need to be networked across.
If there's an organization that you really want to work for, and this applies to everybody, not just people with a doctor title, but everybody, if there's a particular company that you want to work for, contacting, the HR director, the COO, the CEO, and in technology, the CIO, CTO.
They might pass your details to a recruiter, at least then you have, you've done what you can and you've controlled the controllables from your perspective.
Eleonore:
That's great. And a follow up question, because what you shared with me was so inspiring is a very tactical and operational question in the sense of where do the people mingle
Eleonore: How can scientists make themselves known where it counts?
Beth Horsley:
Yeah. It's a really good question, since the pandemic, it's starting again now, but there's not been tons of this kind of thing going on. Events, industry led events, recruitment events that are going on, if you're starting at the bottom and, and working your way up, you know, I. Going to the graduate recruitment fairs, going to the places where these people are going to be is the best way forward. Make sure that you're networking effectively with these people is the best way forward.
And, and recruiters as well, obviously in the space that you want to get into are gonna be really good contacts for you.
Eleonore:
Thank you, Beth, for giving us so many comprehensive answers in the sense of that I wasn't even expecting because that episode so far is so helpful for many target groups.
[00:35:42] The Value of a Doctorate in Career Progression
Eleonore:
But now I wanna switch gears and sort of like cater the needs of the scientists or ex scientists who have already leaped into business and are successful. Because I know that some of my listeners here are already advanced in their career and are thinking of, you know, either going back into academia, boomerang back to become a professor at an applied university just like I did. Or they really want to move up the letter and become CIO, CTO or whatever. So, the ones in the middle.
Do you think that a doctor title at that point in time is a booster for their career progression? Or is it like nice to have but they don't have, because you see people are reaching top positions also without it, and it really doesn't matter anymore at that time in point.
Beth Horsley:
Okay. That's a really good question and I think at the moment it's a client driven market. There are lots of candidates out there, who are looking. A lot of it depends on the industry. it depends on the company itself. You might be working for an organization who are willing to fund you or to fund your education as well. We have a lot of candidates their company will pay for or sponsor 'em to do an MBA, for example. Help them on that route to furthering their expertise across that platform.
You get lots of these opportunities within education, within charity, within the, not-for-profit sector where they want people with a doctor title to progress in their organization, especially in education, but that's not so much seen in other industries.
So, I think it really does depend on what industry you work in. What area you want to work in, where you want to go with your career, really.
Eleonore:
Yeah, that really is a great answer because it really is, depending on the, what's in it for the company to have a person with a doctor title at the top.
For example, I was also the executive coach for the leader, so then obviously my doctor title was of benefit for that person because they said, I even have a coach with a doctor title, and you just have a coach without one.
So, it's sort of like, it depends on the situation whether the doctor title will be beneficial or not. I was even able to have a signing bonus because I have a doctor and that was also a time where it was a high demand.
So, knowing what you are able to contribute and to sort of like, put that also as a foot forward instead of like hiding the doctor, but also coming from a place of being humble as well in the sense of when it's not needed, then don't boast about it.
Beth Horsley:
Yeah, totally.
Eleonore: Because otherwise it will be intimidating. Knowing to balance so that the other party will benefit most instead of having misconceptions or fears or something like that.
Scientists in business will adapt.
Will they be happy?
Eleonore:
Now I have a question that is coming from my community. You are working with candidates who may have a doctor title and have advanced in their business careers and talking about commercialization, etc. So, do you see people with a doctor title being happy in business, or do you see them missing something?
Do you see a fit for them in the long term or do they have to sort of like change.
Beth Horsley:
Yeah, most people find purpose in what they want to do. I think in the end most people do get there, what I tend to see is it depends on the individual level of commerciality and it's all about understanding the connect between business, what they're looking to do in your role, and how you can make that business succeed.
Right. And, and if you've got that, and if you understand that and if it's something that really pushes your buttons, then you're gonna be fulfilled, aren't you? I do meet a lot of people and I've got some friends who are PhD students or post PhD who have never really got there in business because they've never really been satisfied with the commercial world and what that brings, I think that, if you have a good grounding in a big global business that can offer you the chance to experience and how that actually works then I think it helps an awful lot.
That would be my advice.
Eleonore: Thank you for this advice. Like I said already, it's like, it might be sounding like tough love, but I would say it's, it's the more realistic one can go and enter the business world, the better it is.
And I had some episodes on fears and misconceptions on either the candidate side, but also on the company side or recruiters could have some misconceptions.
And also, you know, question marks when screening a candidate. So, it really is about, you know, being honest and be yourself. And otherwise it will be hard. I mean, I love being a consultant because it's like solving problems all the time.
And that's the same just translated into the business world.
I always thought that I would hate sales and marketing, and now I'm doing today a lot of these things. My business relies heavily on the premise that I will market myself into opportunities, and if I don't enjoy that, I'll be bad at it. And being bad at a job is sort of like the recipe for non progression and no career.
So, finding out what you like and then double down on what you like so that you can, progress and get more opportunities, that will be helpful for you in the long run. But that really means that you find the right industry, you find the right company and the right role.
Beth Horsley:
Yes, that's exactly it. You know, I love my job, but there are areas of my job that, that I don't particularly like as much as other things, but in order to do well at the job, you have to do those things, you don't like, but you have to be successful at those things as well.
And if it's really not doing it for you, then it's knowing as well that it's not right for you.
Eleonore:
And that's where Page Executive, Michael Page and the overarching Page Group might be very helpful, as they are the partner that can help you understand and maybe pass your profile to this company or have you in mind for another company because they see that you would be a better fit for another company.
So, follow and connect with Beth Horsley in UK and Dr. Sonja Ulland on LinkedIn.
Also, listen to below interview with Dr. Sonja Ulland:
From liberal arts to a corporate career, a headhunter at the #PageGroup in Düsseldorf, Germany.
[00:43:28] The Role of Mindset in Career Transition
Eleonore:
Beth, can you wrap up your take on what should a scientist leaping into business mindset be and why is that important?
Beth Horsley:
Okay. In terms of a mindset. Be positive, be optimistic, manifest what you, what you want to achieve. These are all things for anybody going into a new role, the next role for themselves. You have to be commercially aware, have agility in thought, and strategic mindset is everything really. Know your audience, know the company that you're applying for, do a lot of research around the role that you want and, and perhaps whether they can offer you that and go for it. Have a positive commercial strategic mindset is I think the best advice.
Eleonore: Wow. And that really puts a bow on this episode. Because two days ago I recorded an episode with Dr. Emily Rosenthal, she is based in the US she just talked about business agility as strategic communication and the ability to sort of like talk to your target audience. And that will dovetail with what you just shared with us.
And I also recommend my episodes on the future of work, but also on working out your future because no one else is doing the homework for you. You need to do the research so so that recruiters of companies can find you and place you well within the company.
Beth Horsley's tip for benefiting from the Page Group
Eleonore:
How can my listeners reach out to you, or page executive or page group, depending on the different levels. We were talking about the databases; is there anything that you can let us know how we can reach you?
Beth Horsley:
Yeah, sure we're a big global business, so we have a great website where you can apply to jobs directly. You can contact us through LinkedIn. I think it really does depend on the, the career level that you specifically going in at.
As I've mentioned before, within page group, we have page personnel, Michael Page, page, executive page consulting, page outsourcing. Depending on what you are looking for, there's gonna be different routes in. My advice would be to go on our website, so it's www.page group.com.
And have a look and see, where is gonna be the best fit for you. From a page executive perspective, reaching out to us on LinkedIn is a, is a really good solution. All of our consultant profiles are on the website as well. We're easy to contact. That would probably be the best place to start.
Eleonore:
So, dear PostdocTransformers, if you do reach out to a person from the PageGroup, then do me a favor and also make sure that they know that you have listened to this episode with Beth Horsley because this is really an episode that has primed you to be more knowledgeable about yourself, that makes sure that that sort of like tells the recruiter that you are already on the next level on your job search. All right? So thank you so much, Beth.
Beth Horsley:
Thank you so much for your time and for inviting me on the show.
So, follow and connect with Beth Horsley in UK and Dr. Sonja Ulland on LinkedIn.
If you mention their interviews on our PostdocTransformation show, that will make our day!
This PostdocTransformation show was brought to you by Prof. Dr. Eleonore Soei-Winkels
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